Small List, Real Revenue: How Andi Smiley Uses Email & Pinterest to Sell Her Offers Without Sales Calls

: 00:00:08

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Hi listeners, welcome back to the Email Marketing Experiment! Today I have another amazing guest, as always. Let me start with a fun fact: she reads about six to seven books a month. Back in the day, I used to think I was big on reading, but when I saw this, I had to give some major respect. I've been struggling to keep up!

Our guest today is a podcast coach who uses email marketing to sell her offers as a service provider. She absolutely loves podcasts and listens to a lot of them—if you're around her for any amount of time, she will probably tell you about something she just learned from one. She's also a mom of three littles aged four and under, and she has found that listening to podcasts helps keep her sanity while building block towers for the hundredth time, especially on days when she hasn't spoken to another adult.

###: 00:01:12

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I have no other person with me today than Andi Smiley! You probably know her as your friendly podcast guide from Threads. If you've ever seen her amazing tips on Pinterest, email marketing, and podcasting, we have her here with us on the show. Welcome, Andi! It's so good to have you.

**Andi Smiley:** Thank you! I'm excited to be here.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** We're excited to have you as well. Now, before we go into all the email strategies, how do you finish six to seven books a month? Our listeners would love to know how you pull that off while raising three kids under four, running a business, and staying active on socials. Let us in on the secret!

**Andi Smiley:** Honestly, I just always have a book with me. I literally have a book with me right now!

###: 00:02:17

**Andi Smiley:** I also love audiobooks. I'll listen to an audiobook while I'm cleaning or doing chores, but then I'll also have a physical book that I'm reading during the same time period. So, I'm usually consuming two different books within the same day. Right now, I'm listening to the new book by Sharon McMahon about remarkable people in American history who didn't make it into the textbooks. At the same time, I'm physically reading *The Tapestry of Fate* by Shannon Chakraborty. I am a giant fantasy nerd; I love all fantasy books!

###: 00:03:12

**Andi Smiley:** My kids all know the goal is "don't bug Mom when she's reading." It works about 50% of the time! They'll see me and think, *Ah, Mom's busy, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.*

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** That's so nice. Back when I was a bit younger, I used to read a lot of novels, but I haven't read fiction in a really long time. Lately, I've been reading more business and faith-based books. Sometimes I'll be reading two at the same time, but the problem is I'm not finishing them. It just drags on, which is why I'm amazed you finish six to seven, especially since fantasy books usually have at least 200 to 300 pages.

**Andi Smiley:** Oh, fantasy books are long!

###: 00:04:05

**Andi Smiley:** One of the books I just finished was from the *Dungeon Crawler Carl* series—I'm a giant fan. The last one was about 800 pages! They are big books, but they're compelling. I was carrying that huge thing around everywhere I went because I needed to know what happened next.

Truly, the other secret is that I'm not on Instagram and I don't have Threads on my phone; I do everything from my computer. Instead of reaching for my phone to scroll social media when I'm bored, I reach for my book. That really helps.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** We are definitely taking note of these tips—from leveraging audiobooks to removing social apps from your phone. That definitely makes a difference. I'd love for our audience to get to know you a bit better. Tell us your story and how you got into podcasting.

###: 00:04:57

**Andi Smiley:** Before I had kids, I was a radio producer for a major radio station in Utah, which is where I live. I graduated from BYU in broadcast journalism, interned at the station, and got hired right as an opening came up. The timing was perfect. I did that for two years, and it was crazy—live radio is pretty intense because a lot of things are happening all at once.

After two years, my husband graduated and wanted to get his master's in marriage and family therapy, so we moved two states over to Kansas. I had to say goodbye to my radio team. At that point, I thought, *I know I'm going to start a podcast someday, I just don't know what it's going to be about.*

###: 00:05:57

**Andi Smiley:** Most people have a specific concept before they start, but I just knew I wanted the medium. While we were in Kansas, we had our first two kids. Eventually, we moved back to Utah for my husband's dream job. About two weeks after my third baby was born, I decided I was finally ready. I still didn't know the exact topic, but I needed something for *me* because I was feeling a little lost in motherhood.

My daughter was born at the end of August, I slowly started working on the concept in mid-September, and I finally launched the following February. It wasn't an overnight process, but it was a big deal to have a project that was just mine.

###: 00:06:51

**Andi Smiley:** I've been podcasting for a while now. A couple of years ago, I pivoted to specifically helping women start and grow their own shows because that was what I felt called to talk about. For right now, it's a really good fit and I love it.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Thank you so much for sharing. One thing I love about your website is that you don't just share your own stuff; you also recommend other podcasts for people to check out. Now, for my first official question: If you could give email marketing a job description or a role in your business, what would it be and why?

###: 00:07:53

**Andi Smiley:** That's a great question. Email marketing is what actually sells most of my offers. Would that make it the Chief Financial Officer? It's the marketing tool that actually closes the deals and brings in the money.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Maybe more like a Chief Revenue Officer!

**Andi Smiley:** There you go! Yes, thank you for the assist.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I find that really interesting because people on social media constantly ask, "Do people really make money from emails?" I remember scrolling through Threads and seeing a heartfelt post from someone asking exactly that. There were so many different points of view in the comments, but hearing your experience is incredibly encouraging for anyone trying to get at it.

###: 00:09:02

**Andi Smiley:** It really does work. For me, email has become a way to connect with my audience on a platform that I actually control. I know the message is landing in their inbox instead of just making a social post and hoping the right people see it.

Platforms like Threads or Instagram—though I currently don't use Instagram because the algorithm doesn't love me, so we took a break—are nice for people to "meet" you. But email marketing is where they really get to *know* you. That's where they realize an offer is perfect for them and decide to buy. It's the perfect closer.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Before we dive deeper into your strategies, we have a tradition on this podcast called the *Email Open Rate Confession*, where guests share their biggest or worst email marketing mistake. What is yours?

###: 00:11:03

**Andi Smiley:** Truly, I used to be terrified of sending more than one email a week. I thought people would get completely sick of me. One day, I crunched the numbers and realized people probably spend roughly two minutes reading an email from me. If I bump that up to four minutes a week, is that really a big deal?

It makes me cringe now to think I was so nervous that I wanted to crawl under a rock rather than send two emails a week. Now, I receive daily emails from people that I love and read consistently. My old mindset was holding my business back in so many ways.

###: 00:12:04

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I love that mindset shift. Just yesterday, I was scrolling on Threads and stumbled on a post discussing a coach who sends an email every single hour when she's launching. The comments section was fascinating. People were saying, "Yes, it's a lot, but I absolutely love it and I read every single one." Others said they would unsubscribe by the third email, but a massive number of people said they stay on the list regardless. If her launch is three days long and she sends an email every hour she's awake, that's a ton of volume, and people still stick around!

**Andi Smiley:** In the grand scheme of things, it works! Having the audacity and confidence to send an email every hour is something I strive for. I'm still working my way up to that level of confidence!

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Thank you for sharing. Now let's dive into the campaign you told me about, because a lot of people struggle with the sales conversation via email.

###: 00:14:01

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** This past winter, you set a goal to fill five spots for a brand-new offer. Because it was new, you couldn't rely on past data showing your audience already loved it. Yet, by sending two emails a week for two and a half months, you filled all five spots—and more than 50% of them came directly from email marketing. What inspired you to create this specific offer?

**Andi Smiley:** Here is some context. Earlier that year, I created a DIY version of this service.

###: 00:15:03

**Andi Smiley:** I help podcasters set up and grow their Pinterest accounts. The DIY offer was a workbook paired with video tutorials walking them through how to optimize their Pinterest profile. People really liked it, but I kept getting feedback from podcasters saying, "I love this concept, and I know it would be great for my show, but I genuinely do not have the time, energy, or capacity to do it myself."

I ruminated on that and thought, *What if I create a Done-For-You (DFY) version where I handle the setup for them?* I knew the demand was there, even though I hadn't delivered the service yet.

###: 00:16:03

**Andi Smiley:** By that point, I was barely using Instagram. I would post on my stories occasionally, but it wasn't a consistent sales channel. Instead, I focused on Pinterest, Threads, and my email list. I knew email was a channel I could control to guarantee the information reached potential clients.

That campaign was actually when I committed to consistently sending two emails a week. I set the goal at five spots because landing one or two clients could just be a fluke. If I could get five people to say yes, I could work through the fulfillment process, test the workflow, and determine if it was a sustainable, good fit for podcasters.

###: 00:17:09

**Andi Smiley:** I had no idea how long it would take to fill those spots. It ended up taking two and a half months, which I was incredibly proud of—especially because the timeline ran straight through Thanksgiving and Christmas, wrapping up in January.

The most beautiful part of the strategy was that I didn't use sales calls. The emails included a direct checkout button. I didn't have the time or energy for discovery calls over the holidays. I did have one prospect email me asking to hop on a call, and I told her, "I'm so sorry, my schedule is completely packed, but please email me all your questions and I will answer them thoroughly right here." She read the response and bought.

Email allowed me to provide so much upfront value and clarity that prospects didn't need a phone call to close. As someone who doesn't love running sales calls, that was an unexpected and amazing benefit.

###: 00:19:16

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I love that approach. To give our audience more context: what did your email strategy look like before you made the jump to two emails a week? When you made the switch to promote this offer, did you worry about people unsubscribing?

**Andi Smiley:** Definitely. I host a podcast, and I take seasonal breaks between production cycles. When the show is active, I want to send at least one email a week breaking down the latest episode. But I also need to talk about my paid offers to generate revenue.

###: 00:20:22

**Andi Smiley:** Trying to squash a podcast recap and a promotional pitch into a single email was a mess; it wasn't working at all. When I finally separated them into two distinct weekly emails—one dedicated to the value/episode and one dedicated to the offer—everything felt much cleaner for both me and my audience.

I'm sure some people unsubscribed when the frequency increased, but my philosophy is: if someone leaves because I'm sending two high-value emails a week, then I am not the right fit for them right now, and that's completely fine. I'd rather they unsubscribe and find a creator who aligns with them than stay on my list resentment-scrolling.

###: 00:21:18

**Andi Smiley:** My list isn't massive—it sits between 350 and 400 subscribers. But because of how my offers are structured, a small list is incredibly profitable. When I launched the beta version of the Pinterest VIP Setup, I priced it at $297. It's currently at $497, and I'm getting ready to raise prices again. Because it's a higher-ticket service, I don't need to close 50 sales a month to hit my income goals. A small list is never a detriment if your offers are correctly aligned.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** That provides incredible perspective. It reminds creators to stop obsessing over list size and focus on creating aligned, high-value offers instead.

To dig deeper into the content: when you promote the exact same offer for two and a half months straight, how do you prevent audience fatigue? How do you keep the copy engaging enough to make them take action week after week?

###: 00:23:34

**Andi Smiley:** That was absolutely something I had to wrestle with to ensure the campaign didn't get boring. Two and a half months is a long time to talk about one offer. To keep it fresh, I always give subscribers a window into my normal, day-to-day life.

Every promotional email starts with a personal story, which I then bridge back to a lesson about Pinterest. For example, in an email going out this week, I talk about finally finishing the *Lord of the Rings* series. I compared Pinterest to Samwise Gamgee—he's the steady companion who carries Frodo and helps him reach Mount Doom. Similarly, Pinterest is the underlying engine that helps business owners reach their long-term traffic goals.

###: 00:25:49

**Andi Smiley:** I also vary the angles depending on whether I'm highlighting the DIY workbook or the VIP Setup. The ideal client for the DIY offer has more time than money right now and wants total control, so the emails focus on building the foundational strategy. The VIP client already knows Pinterest is incredible; she just lacks the hours to implement it. I tailor the storytelling to address those specific pain points. Bringing my personality and personal life into the text ensures it reads like a letter from a friend rather than a dry sales pitch.

###: 00:26:49

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** You mention Pinterest frequently, and I know so many podcasters hear amazing success stories about the traffic it drives, but many give up because they don't understand the platform mechanics. You have a checklist titled *"Is Pinterest Right for Your Podcast?"* How does that work?

**Andi Smiley:** I love that you brought that up because while Pinterest is an incredible tool for many podcasters, it is not a one-size-fits-all solution. I don't want anyone wasting their time on a platform that won't yield results for their specific niche.

The checklist takes less than two minutes to complete. It looks at core qualifying factors, such as whether your content is evergreen. News, pop culture, or daily trending podcasts don't perform well on Pinterest because pins have a incredibly long shelf life—they drive traffic six to twelve months after they are posted. The quiz helps you figure out if you should add Pinterest to your marketing mix or cross it off your to-do list forever.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I am definitely going to take that quiz for my own show, and I'll make sure to drop the link in the show notes for our listeners.

Going back to your email storytelling: do you intentionally pick stories you know your specific audience will resonate with, or do you just share your life authentically without overthinking it?

###: 00:29:55

**Andi Smiley:** I used to spend hours trying to engineer the "perfectly relatable" story, and it completely paralyzed my writing process. I would get overwhelmed and end up throwing something together at the last minute. Now, I just share my life authentically and let it go. If it resonates, awesome; if not, that's okay too.

For example, a couple of months ago, I woke up incredibly dizzy and couldn't get out of bed. My husband kept telling me I was just dehydrated, and I was insisted it was something far worse. Finally, I drank a ton of water, and I felt completely fine. He was right! I turned that silly story into an email: *You might be overcomplicating your podcast growth strategy looking for a complex solution, when the answer is actually as simple as drinking water—optimizing your presence on Pinterest.*

###: 00:31:02

**Andi Smiley:** My audience consists of women podcasters, and if there's one thing I've learned about podcasters and podcast listeners, it's that they are naturally curious—even nosy! They love behind-the-scenes glimpses into your life, even if it has nothing to do with your core business topic.

Regarding audience fatigue: as a consumer, I personally have to read at least five emails about an offer before I even consider buying it. Remembering that helps my mindset immensely. My subscribers aren't going to buy the very first time they hear about an offer. They read an email, think about it, forget it, see another email the next week, discuss it with their spouse, forget it again, and finally buy when the timing aligns perfectly. Repetition is just a helpful reminder.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** That approach makes the entire process sound so stress-free. When you mentioned people being nosy, it made me laugh because another creator actually has a successful lead magnet called *The Nosy Files* for exactly that reason! Humans are inherently curious creatures.

###: 00:35:10

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Over a ten-week campaign sending two emails a week, you sent roughly twenty emails. Did you notice a specific format, subject line style, or call-to-action structure that consistently outperformed the others?

**Andi Smiley:** In terms of direct conversions, there wasn't a strict pattern because most buyers opened multiple emails before checking out. However, the emails that generated the highest open rates always led with heavy vulnerability or self-deprecation in the subject line.

I sent one with a subject line about how terrible I am at cleaning my house. My partner, Scott, handles all the cooking and cleaning because I genuinely dislike both, and he enjoys them. The email started with: *"I am terrible at cooking, I am terrible at cleaning, and I feed my kids peanut butter and jelly sandwiches almost every single day. But do you know what I am world-class at? Pinterest."* That contrast piques curiosity and gets people reading.

###: 00:37:09

**Andi Smiley:** I also got some great advice from email marketer Alli Grummer, who suggested embedding a short video into an email. I sent an email with the subject line *"I made a video for you"* and kept the video under two minutes, letting people know I had three VIP spots left before the New Year. While it didn't drive immediate direct sales, the click-through rate was massive, and multiple people reached out saying the video made them incredibly curious about the service. It was a fantastic way to break up the standard text format.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** That is a brilliant strategy. It reminds me of a campaign by a creator named Iman, who embedded a video that felt deeply personalized. I remember it years later because of the extra mile she went.

How did you manage production logistics during those two and a half months to ensure you never missed an email deadline? Were you using a content calendar or writing on the fly?

###: 00:40:02

**Andi Smiley:** To this day, my broadcast schedule is Tuesdays and Fridays. Monday is my designated deep-work day. My husband watches the kids, and I leave the house from 7:45 AM to 4:30 PM. About 75% of the time, I sit down on Monday morning and batch-write both emails for the week so they are scheduled and ready to go in my provider.

During a launch, I might outline core topics further in advance to ensure I address common objections, but I prefer writing them during the active week. It keeps the copy feeling fresh and timely because I'm sharing stories that happened recently rather than trying to predict my life three weeks out.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I want to pivot back to your Pinterest strategy. You previously posted something that caught my eye: *"I just checked and my Pinterest stats are lower than they were last month, but people are still finding my content, listening to my podcast, and hopping on my email list."* How does that ecosystem work when platform metrics fluctuate?

###: 00:42:23

**Andi Smiley:** Pinterest rolled out a series of algorithm updates that temporarily suppressed view counts across the board. When I checked my backend analytics, my impressions looked lower than usual. But when I cross-referenced that data with my podcast download numbers and new email subscribers, those metrics were completely stable and growing.

###: 00:43:29

**Andi Smiley:** That is the magic of Pinterest compared to entertainment-driven platforms like Instagram or TikTok. On Instagram, people are scrolling passively to zone out. On Pinterest, users are actively searching for solutions to specific problems.

If a post gets 200 views on Instagram and a pin gets 200 views on Pinterest, the Pinterest views are significantly more valuable. The search intent means that user is highly motivated to click through to your blog, read your shownotes, listen to your episode, and download your lead magnet. Even during an algorithm dip, the traffic converts at a much higher rate.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Let me make sure I map the user journey correctly: a user finds your pin, clicks through to your blog post where your podcast player is embedded, listens to the episode, hears your call to action, and joins your newsletter. Is that the primary pipeline?

###: 00:46:53

**Andi Smiley:** Yes, that's a huge part of it. My episodes are short—usually ten to fifteen minutes—so a lot of listeners will just play the audio right inside their web browser on the blog post. I pitch the freebie inside the audio, and they click the link underneath to opt in.

The second track is direct: I design pins specifically built around the value of the freebie itself, which link directly to the landing page. The split is roughly 60/40—60% come through the podcast episode ecosystem, and 40% sign up straight from Pinterest search.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Having clear data visibility makes optimization so much easier. Let's head into a quick rapid-fire round to wrap up. First up: what is your number one piece of advice for podcasters who want to start building an email list?

###: 00:47:57

**Andi Smiley:** If you have the bandwidth, dive into Pinterest. If you aren't ready for Pinterest but want to scale your list quickly, leverage Threads. The strategy on Threads is simple: write a value post unpacking a core concept related to your area of expertise without mentioning your link. When people comment expressing interest or asking questions, reply individually with: *"Hey, I actually have a free guide that breaks this down step-by-step, here's the link!"* It works incredibly well.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** What is your primary email marketing metric? The one number you check above everything else?

**Andi Smiley:** Honestly, I look at open rates, though it might not be the absolute best health metric. My open rate sits around 40%, which I'm happy with. Clicks can sometimes feel discouraging because I might only see three or four clicks on a standard email, and I'm always analyzing how to improve that.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Hold on, let's look at that context! You only have a few clicks per email, but those exact emails generated enough revenue to completely sell out your high-ticket VIP offers. Your core metric should be revenue per subscriber or total launch conversion! If you are hitting your exact client capacity goals, the system is working perfectly regardless of individual click volumes.

**Andi Smiley:** That is an excellent point. I definitely need a mindset shift there! The ultimate goal of the email ecosystem is to generate business revenue, and it's doing exactly that.

###: 00:51:25

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Exactly! When you host your podcast episodes, do you pitch your paid offers and your freebie in the same episode, or do you keep them separate?

**Andi Smiley:** I strictly use a single call to action per episode. If you give listeners more than one choice, they usually choose to do nothing at all. I focus exclusively on driving listeners to my freebie to get them onto my email list. Once they are on the list, the automated sequences and weekly broadcasts handle the sales conversions for my paid offers. Trying to pitch services inside a short fifteen-minute audio track feels overwhelming and overly salesy.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Long form or short form emails?

**Andi Smiley:** Short form, absolutely. No question.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Heavily designed HTML emails with graphics, or plain text?

**Andi Smiley:** Plain text all the way. I want my emails to look like they were written by a friend and land directly in the primary inbox, not the promotions tab.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** What is your favorite email marketing tool or software?

###: 00:53:14

**Andi Smiley:** For sending, I use Flodesk and love their platform. But my actual favorite tool is a simple Google Doc that holds my entire historical email archive. I write and edit everything inside Google Docs first, then copy and paste the clean text into Flodesk. It keeps production dead simple and makes repurposing old content incredibly easy if I'm having a low-energy week.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Finally, what would you say to the business owner who is currently sending emails but struggling to generate consistent sales or hit their revenue goals?

**Andi Smiley:** Don't give up. It takes time to build momentum. When I first committed to my weekly broadcast schedule, I sent emails twice a week for an entire month before I saw my very first sale come through the channel. It is a long-term play. The more consistently you write, the better you become at understanding the exact language, stories, and pain points that resonate with your specific subscribers. Keep showing up.

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** Consistent action yields the data you need to succeed. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Andi! This was an absolute blast. How can our listeners connect with you?

**Andi Smiley:** You can listen to my show, *The Friendly Podcast Guide*, on any major audio app—I highly recommend Pocket Casts, it's my personal favorite player. You can also find me hanging out and chatting on Threads, or search my strategies on Pinterest!

**Dr. Ayebanoa Benwari:** I will make sure all of Andi's links, along with the Pinterest suitability checklist, are right in the show notes below. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode!